Thank God I'm an athiest

I always enjoy saying that.
Anyway, yes, I'm an athiest. Not an agnostic, not unsure, not waiting for god to show him/herself by letting me win the lottery. I don't believe in the supernatural, in all that statement's literal interpretations. The idea of life after death is as silly as the belief you can contact and speak to the dead. Some of the saints were really nice people, as, I'm sure, was Jesus...but what's wrong with thinking of them as just great examples of what any human could be if they wanted? The Bible, Koran and other tomes of religious belief? Just that, a codified book written by believers to extend their traditions and beliefs. I've been a deeply religious person for many years, so I know what I'm talking about. I've read the books, followed the commandments, paid my dues. So I guess you can call me a born-again athiest. Reality is more convincing than abstract belief.

Usually I don't make an issue of my position. As opposed to many of the religious people who insist I believe as they do or be considered a terrible person, I don't usually care what others believe. They are free to be as illogical and superstitious as they wish. In the end, we all die and none of that will matter. But something came up this week that made me want to discuss this topic for once.

On my block there was a wake for a young person who died. I didn't know the person who died, so I wasn't involved in the situation, but it did get me thinking. The religious, and in this country particularly christians, often put those of us who don't share their beliefs into awkward social situations. If I'd been a friend of the person who died, I would of course be expected to attend the funeral if not the wake as well. But I don't see any point in funerals. They are performed to comfort the living left behind, though why they need comfort is beyond me. If they truly accept their beliefs, funerals and wakes should all be joyous occasions. Most wakes are, and rightly so. But I have yet to attend an upbeat funeral. And those I have attended require me, in order not to disturb the beliefs of those around me, to pretend to go along with all the ritual. How is this freedom of belief? I have no wish to be rude or unsociable, but to avoid being so requires me to play along with what I consider a farce. The concept of religious freedom in America has been perverted into becoming religious oppression, and in many cases, religious persecution. I can't help but believe if christians actually followed their beliefs more honestly, they be much nicer people to be around. And I won't even go into what havoc and crime religious beliefs around the world have caused throughout history, and are causing right now. A religious war is like children fighting over who has the strongest imaginary friend.

Freedom *OF* religion includes freedom *FROM* religion.

Morality is doing what is right no matter what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told no matter what is right. Religion cannot be without morality, but morality may arrive without religion. It's frustrating to me that so many people think you can only be moral if you're religious. Nonsense. How many mass muderers and cruel dictators have held religious beliefs? Remember the Middle Ages?
Moral behavior need not depend on superstitious belief. I don't have to hold a belief that I'm going to go to hell just to behave morally. If you do, then you have a character flaw that even religion may not be able to correct. Being a decent human being should be its own reward.

Comments

[Sgt Schultz]

As an athiest myself I just got to say that I agree with everything you said there Jeber.

[tiredmother]

You know me Jeber so you know I'm NOT an atheist. I full well expect and, in fact, have written instructions to those I leave behind that I don't want a funeral - I want a party! If you desire freedom FROM religion and the beliefs of my church and my family make you feel uncomfortable, then you can't come to my party. It's not that I don't like you or wouldn't want you there but the basis of the party is my religious belief in the afterlife. I guess I could edit the instructions I leave behind to say that "any and all friends who don't believe as I do hereby have permission to skip the party with no bad feelings among the living or the dead."
I do not begrudge you your freedom to believe or not believe whatever you want but for others to alter their beliefs for your social comfort puts your non-belief on a higher plain than their belief which doesn't make sense for the believer's funeral but would for an atheist's funeral.
As for your comments about morality, I agree wholeheartedly. I know some vile people calling themselves "Christians." (Makes it hard for me to admit I'm one, too, at times.) I do my best to follow my beliefs honestly because I don't believe in the beliefs - I believe in a relationship with my Creator.
BTW, I've been reading some of your blog. I had no idea how opinionated you are. (I think being opinionated is good.) It's a wonder you don't gnaw your fingers off to keep from "sharing" over at the LG forums. Kudos to you for doing what you can to remain an unbiased moderator.

[Jeber]

Thanks for stopping by, TM, and for honestly responding to my thoughts. I really wasn't asking others to adjust to my beliefs, just ranting thast the way it usually works is that I have to adjust my beliefs to keep from offending them. I don't pretend that there's a perfect solution or I propose one. It's just that now and then I feel the need to speak out about it so that others realize that not all of us are obnoxious about our opinions. Yet we often are frustrated that we have to try to "pass" in certain situations. So this was just my venting session.
I hope they do throw that party for you. I think that's the way we all should want to go out, regardless of where we think we're headed afterwards. Party on!

[tiredmother]

I'm glad I stopped by, too - so glad, in fact, that you can see I've done it again.
I don't have a solution either. I find most of the time that when people's religions or lack of don't mesh, many situations become awkward. The best solution seems to be maintaining respect for the other person. Sometimes this doesn't work out well though because a) many people don't seem to have a clue what respect means and b) sometimes you don't know the other person's point of view until you've stepped on them and there you both are feeling awkward and apologetic.
P.S. You can come to my party. Just be warned in advance that there's gonna' be a bunch of charismatic Baptists (yes, such a thing DOES exist) roaming around the place.

[gus3]

I'm Eastern Orthodox, so I'm not quite coming from the same page, but the First Amendment glues us all together as people who are free to follow their consciences. As I see it, it all comes down to this:

I believe we are blessed to live in a nation where people are free to be atheists and Muslims, rather than forced to be.

[teacher]

Jeber

I think we are probably polar opposites but I won't push my beliefs on you. :) You are free to have your beliefs and as long as we can each practice our own in private then all is well.

Tired Mother: I too want a big party when I go. When my mom was killed suddenly in a car accident it was the neatest get together. I think we sat in the church social hall for two hours sharing stories and funny incidents. I came to appreciate many sides of her that as a daughter I had not witnessed.

Jeber

Keep blogging away. Glad to see you are back at it some.

j

[flio]

Wow. I love that. Im an athiest and I thank God for it.
-go athiests by the way.
-flio191
(check out my site for a list of oxymorons)

[Fogarty]

"A religious war is like children fighting over who has the strongest imaginary friend."

That's a timeless quote, and if I ever use it, I'll give you full credit. I would consider myself more of an agnostic (because I don't have proof of higher powers and whatnot, but I don't have proof against such things, either). I know that weird things happen that can't be explained, but I refuse to use the word "supernatural." Whatever exists is, by its nature, er...natural. Just because we don't have a way to measure or observe something doesn't mean we won't, eventually. I can speculate, for instance, on what I think a ghost is, but to assign it details ("it's the spirit of a dead person," or "it's an angel," or "it's a fourth-dimensional reflection of events past.") is, to me, entirely baseless.

Same thing with religion. I feel that I can have a belief in the possibility in a great beyond without giving it a name like "Jehovah," or "Allah," or "Steve." And I don't have to preach it to anyone, either.

"Imaginary friend," indeed! It might be that. Or it might not. But it's not for me to say, nor is it for anyone else to judge me on my adherence to (or heresy against) such beliefs. I can be an honest and decent person because I believe in the Golden Rule, keeping things simple, and enjoying life on this Earth rather than fearing divine retribution in the afterlife from an intangible, cosmic policeman.

But, yeah. I could've just said that I agree and kept this much shorter, eh?

[ta]

I am on the fence.I think that several people that call themselves christian are liars. They insist on living for the bible yet they are always breaking the rules. I think that church is only now become a social gathering. You are your own supernatural hero you play god because you have no god!

[Pokendeye]

I believe in god, if time exist then it had to have a start. how ever I think religion's don't believe in god. and god doesn't believe in religion's. They have nothing to do with each other. Basic religious belief is if you take care of me now, I'll take care of you after you die, and you'll be dead for so long, how could you turn down such a deal. And all you have to do is what ever I say!!!!!!!!!!!!
God my ass. Politics, is the perfect outlet for religion, All we have to do is find a way to prevent it from ever, ever, winnig an election. It would surely be the last one. Just ask god.

[Andy]

God exists because he has to .

[andy]

I think people who say they don,t believe in God are just rebelling against their own mortallity. They are angry that they will have to die sometime and that they have no control over it ,so they want to blame God and yet they can,t because they don,t believe in God so they have no one to vent their rage upon. It,s a vicious circle you cannot escape from until one fine day you finally accept God into your heart and then you will realise that an athiestic life is so empty and meaningless that you will begin to question it. Andy

[jeber]

Death is simply the unavoidable outcome of life. It happens to everyone. Nothing to be afraid of. I do not feel any rage over that fact, nor do I wish to blame anyone for what is a fact of nature. Every living thing dies. Accept that and you won't fear it.

If you do fear death, you'll want to invent something that makes you feel better about it, that makes death more acceptable. Perhaps if we pretend that there is a god who says he loves us that is in control of death, and then invent a place we want to go to after death to turn death into something less final than it really is, then we won't be so afraid of it. That is what religion has done. It's a pacifier for those who need a reason for everything. If you ask why there is death, you must then also ask the opposite question, why is there life? There is no answer. Life happened because of a happy (for us) coincidence of factors. Part of the reality of life is that it does not continue on forever. It only lasts a while. Enjoy it while you can. And you'll value it more, enjoy it more, if you accept that this is your only shot at getting it right. No make ups, no do overs. No rewards or punishment later on. Live life while you can, and be thankful for every day you have.

The only thing I question these days about religion is how I was ever able to believe in it for as long as I did.

[andy]

Sorry Jeber Can,t accept a word of that . Can you honestly call a child in all its beauty a coincidence? The way that light interacts with its brain through the eyes to enable it to see. The way a human being can learn and adapt and grow. Coincidence ? not in a million years ( notice the irony ) Religion is not a pacifer at all . It is life giving hope even if it turns out to be false . If I believed as you do then I think I would die of despair . To be born and live and then die without meaning is the most cruel trick ever played on humanity by a God real or otherwise . I am thankful for ever day I have and should thank God for the gift of it as should you .

[Jeber]

When I look in the eyes of a starving African child, I don't see the hand of god. All life is a combination of circumstances. If not having a god to believe in would cause you to dispair, then believe. I have no desire to cause you grief. But expecting me to accept what I firmly regard as superstitious and wishful thinking is unrealistic. I spent years believing in god. My decision not to do so anymore was a thought out and educated decision. I do not fear death, I do not believe that there is a supernatural purpose to life. I do believe all life is precious. I do believe love is a powerful force for good and peace. I do believe that you should treat others as you wish to be treated. Religion is not the reason I feel that way. Human kindness shouldn't be based on what church a person belongs to. It should be a trait common to all humans.

[Jeber]

By the way, every dog and cat I've enjoyed being with in my life has also grown and learned. Many qualities like that are not restricted to humans. Yet most religions don't extend salvation to them. If god created all the animals as well as humans, why are they denied salvation?
Do they not deserve it as much as we do? Personally, if I had to live forever, I'd decline if I couldn't spend that time in the company of animals.

[andy]

With regards to the starving child Jeber ,would you believe in God if he sent food down from the sky? In many ways that is the worst thing that could happen ,for that would mean that God intervenes in human life . That would mean you would have no choice .That is against every religious precept. God invites us and has given us the choice . Starving kids are our fault .God has provided enough for the world, even today. By our greed ( and our sin ) we have contributed to the starving child . You said your decision is an educated one . This is where all atheists fall down . The existence of God is not and can never be determined by educated thought however advanced . It is not about learning and never has been . It is about wisdom , which cannot be taught in university. I swear to you Jeber that you will know more of God by a hour of humility than a year studying theology or evolution. Scientific and rational criteria is not the tools to discover God ,it never has been , but that is the tools you are using and that is why you will always fail . You are right about human kindness though , isn,t that what Christ taught ?

[Rick]

G-day Jebber....

Im also an athiest, and I have a few choice points to make with respect to religion....and a few questions for those who are religious...and im not going to single out any particular faith here.. but

1:
Why is it that the Catholic church here in Australia this year (2005) made a whopping 71 BILLION dollars - and yet the poor are given nothing more than crumbs.

- Now think about this! - thats only Australia! - what do you think that religion has made on a world-wide scale in terms of income over (2005)? - it beats the hell out of me - BUT! think of this.....

If the churches were REALLY serious about helping those in need - as they beat their chests and say they are, then imagine what THAT one church ALONE could achieve withjust those funds from that SINGLE countries PROFITS - with respect to solving poverty, childhood deaths, diesease, fresh clean drinking water, crops, starvation, education, infrastructure, hospitals, medicines, drug rehabilitation, sex education programs, and many other issues! ...but instead, every-single-sunday they pass the plate around to collect "donations to help the needy" - needy my ARSE! - more like 0.01% for the needy - and the rest into the church "coffers" to build bigger churches , or more churches - to not only spread hatred and division between others who are NOT of their chosen faith, or convert them.

The fact is.... more churches or even bigger ones means more perisheners, which equals more "donations".....these people have been collecting from the masses since day 1 - over 2000 yrs ago in 1 form or another.

The point in THIS case is that , say for example a man needs a loaf of bread to survive - these religions own a CHAIN of BAKERIES! - and yet! - theose who really NEED some help and are desperate to survive dont even recieve a "slice" of bread from them ...just "crumbs".

2:
Isnt it strange though, - just the other day I was thinking that according to the bible, your not supposed to drink " the bible says wine is a mocker - strong drink is raging" ...and you shouldnt smoke becasue your body is like temple and a holding place for your soul, and should be treated with respect. - and lastly...
gambling is a sin ( as it was when jesus himself destroyed a temple because they were gambling and running a market place in it ).................and YET!!!

I can leave my smokes, and glass of beer next to the poker machine at The CATHOLIC Club!

3:
While Im At it! - WHY is it that a PRIEST who is not ALLOWED to marry, still qualified to give Marrage Guidence Counciling to a couple in marital strife? - so wheres his "personal experience" being drawn from? - when a husband complains for example ...well, another thing is ...the wife keps nagging at me to take out the trash or treats me coldly.... how can a priest say....ya know buddy, I know exactly how ya feel! - tell me about it! lol!..
- NOT!

4: you were speaking earlier about a funeral being a waste of time..... well heres another...Baptisms! - think about this....a baptism is a way for a person to wash away his sins and start a new with the lord - to forgive him for all the stuff-ups, and let him wipe the slate clean in the eyes of god right?.................
well....wasnt that price supposedly ALREADY paid for his sins by Jesus when he supposedly died on the cross in Calvery 2000yrs EARLIER? - so hasen't (in effect) and remember! - jesus paid the price for the sins of ALL mankind both past present and FUTURE....so, why baptise, to do the same thing twice?

5:According to the bible..."ALL men have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God" - Chirstians seem to forget this BASIC thing....when a child is born...its not a sinner, it has nothing to answer for...you see, its a child - and ALL children are born FREE!!!! - Ive never seen a new born baby with some kind of religious I.D. tag, or sticker on its head saying anything.. - point IS religion, just like the laws of government, or seociety, are ALL AFTERTHOUGHTS! - you are MADE a christian or a hindo, or a Muslim, or a Baptist, or whatever by your PARENTS!....you have not got a CHOICE in the matter! - you dont have ANY kind of undestanding about this "god" thing . its put apon you like it or not! - I personally find it kind of "wierd" - its like saying ....kid, we got to rush you to a church and get you blessed or the devil will get ya soul!!!!
- and this basic belief is this ....YA MUST have SOME KIND of religion ....ANY religion ....then your accepted by the world... which to ME seems like being FORCED to wear some kind of "LABEL - or be part of a particular Colourgang " - but to be an Athiest isnt ALLOWED!...question is....why not?

6: - Remember these points...

How many times have you ever had a pair of Athiests knock on your door on a sunday afternoon wanting to save you from ...
( the evils of religion? )

7:
How many Athiests have killed in the name of God?

8:
why is it that only SHEEP need a SHEPARD?

9:

Religion has been the cause of more murder rape, and barbarian acts pitting man against man and ALL in the name of a "CONCEPT" which is ABSTRACT since before recorded history till the present day... than those killed in ALL the world wars, and in ALL OTHER conflicts presently being experienced.

10:
when ANY religion gets to the point where they start running aircraft into buildings and killing thousands and justify it by saying that their doing it i nthe name of their "god" - no matter WHO or WHAT they believe.....its time to outlaw RELIGION...ALL of it!.

Now you might think thats a little HARSH a statement? . well ATLEAST from a cold,hard, factual, HISTORICAL fact we ALREADY KNOW .....the LAST time "RELIGIONS" ran the world... it was refered to as " the dark ages".!... I rest my case.

Thanks for taking the time to read all of this.. and I could have mande MANY more points, but that might be for another time.

I love your site, and keep up the good work.

Regards...

Rick.

P.S. any comments, please feel free to E-mail me.

[Grady Zero]

I am almost overwhelmed that all the news outlets are domainated by the death and the Pope and the election of a news one. Religion is a may hystrical mental illnes, Catholocism is the a psychosis that is unpreceneted excepting maybe Islam. Surely all the news media is not so niaeive as to truly belive if that indeed there is a god that the "sick and perverted" Catholic church has an connection to him. If the paradyme is to be belive, the Catholic Church is the closed thing to worship of satinism (assume he existed too.) Look at the history of the the Catholism. Think of the thousand of lives that were sacrificed in the name of the "Crusaded". Catholism has nothing to do with the prophic Jesus Christ. I can belive the the American New Media is so duped. America is dupe. I can't wait to denounce my citizenship and move to the Netherlands. America and is dooomed. Jesus would turn over in is grave if he only know the goory gloly seeks who use his name in vain.

[Andy]

Sorry my friend , not only is everyword you have written absolutely rubbish, it is also absolutely wrong , and worse still , it is also almost completely mis-spelt. You're right about one thing though , the world,and America is doomed, but as a result of sin ,not naivety . I suggest you first learn English , then spend some years studying theology and at the end of that time add prayer to your life . ( and say one for the pope , he has spent his life saying them for you ) .

[jeber]

Andy, you have given two examples of the narrow-mindedness that makes many non-religious people reluctant to discuss these issues. First, you either presume that English is Grady Zero's native language and he just doesn't have much mastery over it or that the entire world should speak perfect English. The Internet is an international forum, and I appreciate those to whom English may be a difficult language in which to write when they attempt to do so. Then, as if not satisfied to be insulting over his use of the language, you try to be an authority on what is absolute. What you accept as absolute is only so to those with whom you share a common belief system. I don't accept your definitions at all.
I have spent years studying theology and spent several of those years as a youth pastor. It has not prevented me from becoming an atheist. In fact, it was my knowledge of the christian religion that lead to my becoming an atheist. Everyone else here has spoken in generalities and avoided bad-mouthing individuals. Since you, a representative of a loving and merciful god, failed to do the same, I feel free to likewise address my remarks directly to you. But from now on, I'd appreciate it if people could state their own beliefs without feeling the need to harrass individuals. Pride is also a sin in your book, is it not?

[Andy]

Mr Jaber
Thanks for your reply and although not directed at you, I applaud you for rushing to Mr Gradys defence . Firstly , if English is not Mr Gradys first language then I apologise , if it is, then I retract it. .
Why do you assume that non-religious people are reluctant to discuss these things ? In my experience it is the exact opposite , as they are indeed the most vocal and the truly pious are drowned out by their loud tirades.
You are wrong when you say I think I am an authority on the absolute. Where did you get that from ? I do believe that God is absolute as is his truth , but alas me ! no , I am an authority on nothing .( perhaps 60s & 70s music ) . I do share a common belief system but then again don't we all at some level ?. If that same system didn't exist , I would still believe in a creator whether differing people had different belief systems or not .
You say you have spent years studying theology . How much of that did you spend in prayer ? If you became an athiest then I suspect not much . If you deserted God because of the actions of bad and misguided Christians in the past then you are easily derailed my friend . Have centuries of good works and charitable institutions and the pious prayerful noble lives of saintly people passed you by ? You should base your faith on these examples Mr Jaber and not the examples of the middle ages where pride and ignorance and sin were the cause of much misfortune.
I could use for example the millions murdered by Stalin , Lenin , Pol Pot et all as examples of what athiesm is guilty of and I believe it has caused more deaths than any faith/ belief system ever did.
Take a look at the world today Mr Jeber . Take a look at the hell it's in ,Take a look at the daily dose of murder , rape , drugs, greed , violence, poverty , utter, hopelessness that fills every heart especially in the modern countries and dare to tell me it's caused by belief in God when in fact it is the exact opposite . As mankind has lost God then God has left mankind to his own device and this hell hole of an earth is the living proof of it . Even you Mr Jeber have lost hope ( although you will deny this ) and remember as every day passes ,then that day of your own death is one day closer .( I wonder if you will be so sure then ). I suspect you will do what every athiest ever born will do .You will beg God to forgive your unbelieving and undeserving soul .( I know I will ) Every single certainty you once held true will fly away to nothingness as the reallity of that moment dawns . If I have to " harrass " the occasional individual to remind him of that ,then it's a small price to pay is it not .

[john]

Then the Lord answered Job out of the storm. He said. "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge? Brace yourself like a man; I will question you; and you will answer me Job 38:1-3
The Lord said to Job "Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!" Then Job answered the Lord: "I am unworthy-how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth. I spoke once, but i have no answer, twice, but i will say no more Job 40:1-5...
Do you have an arm like God's and can your voice thunder like his? Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor, and clothe yourself in honor and majesty. Unleash the fury of your wrath, look at every proud man and humble him, crush the wicked where they stand. Bury them all in the dust together; shroud their faces in the grave. Then I myself will admit to you that your own right hand can save you." Job 40:9-14
Then Job replied to the Lord: "I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted. You asked 'who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?' Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. You said 'listen now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you shall answer me.' My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes." Job 42:1-6.

[jeber]

Ummm, yeah, John...that's wonderful. If I had any interest in rereading those passages, I could have done so. I take it you have nothing in your own words to add to the discussion? In that case, you're no better than any other spammer who likes to deface other people's sites for their own infantile reasons.
I'm glad to stopped by, but please, restrict your comments to thoughts from your own head. We can all go read a book should we want to.

[Dean]

Jeber,
You have quite an interesting web page, but I was saddened to see you discarded John's remarks so readily. John must have felt that you could learn from another person's experience (Job's) and thus shared those passages with you (and other readers too). Thank you for allowing his comments to stand. Your are doing all a good service.

I noted some very interesting comments by Andy regarding the beauty and awesomeness of creation, which I personally find no explanation for in the theory of evolution. While the fossil record shows many similarities among earth's creatures, one would expect such things from the Creator, just as one sees a certain style from artists in their paintings. The theory of evolution may show how closely similar some creatures are to others, but I have never seen a plausible explanation as to the origin of life itself, or for that matter, the origin of universe. Was the universe always in existence? I have heard that scientists say, "No, it had a beginning." Did God create it? Atheists say, "No. Otherwise, where did God come from?" Therefore, it seems more plausible to some, that the universe appeared on the scene, out of nothing, rather than that some intelligent designer put it into motion. As for me, from the little I know about Einstein's theory of relativity, it tells me that Energy equals Mass times the speed of light squared. Therefore, mass cannot come about from nothing. It had to come from a source of energy. I find it interesting that Isaiah 40:26 states, “Raise your eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one [of them] is missing." Jeber, this is the only reasonable conclusion that I can arrive at.

However, I sense your distain for religion in general. No, religion has not well represented the god that it professes to represent. But in my opinion, this is man's fault, not God's. Yet, no one has said that man is perfect. We make mistakes... some of them huge mistakes. We hate each other because of the color of our skin, or the origin of our birth, or the way that we worship. Yet, I believe that God gave us the color of our skin. I thank him for the day I was born, wherever it was. I don't know what capacity animals have, as to contemplating the purpose of life. But we appear to have been created with the capacity to ask such questions, as you have posed on this website. It reminds me of what a man said some 2000 years ago... "And he made out of one man every nation of men, to dwell upon the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of the dwelling of men, for them to seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. For by him we have life and move and exist..." (Acts 17:26-28) Jeber, thanks for setting up this web site, to help us all “grope” a little bit, to figure out what this life is all about.